H8 – Keep ‘Em Out of Sight

h8
As many of you know, I’m not exactly white. I’m Mexican American or as I prefer to call myself, Chicana. My father and my grandparents were born here in Los Angeles, but my great-grandparents came up from Zacatecas, Mexico.  I grew up in Los Angeles where having a white mother didn’t make me anything but Mexican.  That said, I didn’t experience too much discrimination.  My parents were very careful, protecting my sister, brother and me from the hate and fear that my father’s face and skin color could evoke.  Still, up through the 1980s, they had a hard time moving into white neighborhoods.  Realtors refused to show them homes, tried to steer them to the browner parts of town.  And this was with my mother being white.

My uncle’s family experienced all that and much more. My cousins don’t have a white mother to temper their skin tone and that color’s effect on the neighborhood.  When they moved into a white part of town, a “welcome wagon” met them with a chicken casserole and a request that they keep their children in the backyard for fear the sight of these brown children would lower property values.

So what you say?  Sad, but these are different times, right?

I say wrong and I’m calling our spanking community out on it. What groups like Crimson Moon and Ms. Margaret’s SCONY are doing by not allowing M/M spanking in their groups, what SpankingTube is doing by not having M/M searches come up in their general search is the same damn thing as racial redlining was in a previous generation.  It maybe legally right, but it’s ethically reprehensible.

But, but, some people don’t like M/M spanking.  So what?  I don’t like oral sex.  I don’t ask that it be banned or shunted off into a corner so I don’t have to stumble upon it.  I just avert my gaze and look at something I do like.  For those of you who think you can’t learn to stomach M/M spanking, I urge you to free your mind and grow the fuck up.   If your arousal is so fragile that the sight or suggestion of M/M spanking can take it down, you may need some medical help.  Not everything in the scene has to exist specifically to get you off.

But, but, you agree with me.  Really. You wish these spanking groups or SpankingTube didn’t discriminate.  Then live your beliefs.  Don’t patronize them.   Don’t use their sites.  Don’t go to their parties.  And let them know why you’re not.  That you’d like to, but because of their policy toward M/M spanking in our scene, you can’t.  Then go places like Shadow Lane and SF-CP that are open to everyone whatever their orientation.

But, but, Mija, you’re ranting.

Yes. Yes I am.  Don’t hate. You know you don’t want to.  And don’t support people who can and do.

ADDED: For more information on what SpankingTube is doing and why it sucks see this post by PaulThe Problem with SpankingTube.com

For a less rant-y take on M/M spanking see this post by IndyHomophobia in the Scene.  And another one by Indy here: Homophobia in the Scene, Revisited.

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PS. What did my uncle do? He had his twin brother move in next door with his family.  And then two put up a basketball hoop so all the kids played outside in the street, property values be damned.

26 thoughts on “H8 – Keep ‘Em Out of Sight

  1. Indy

    Great post, Mija.
    I started to respond here, but it’s too long. And, well, I need more blog posts. 😉 So I’ll respond there.

    Reply
  2. Zille Defeu

    Mija – Your uncle rocks! But you are so brilliant, I’m not surprised you’re from an exceptional family.
    Thanks for the complimentary link (maybe I should have another SF-CP party, to keep strong the bastions of open-armed spanking parties!) and I’ll do a post on this topic as well.
    ~Zille

    Reply
  3. Melissa

    Well put.
    It’s odd to me. Appreciating all kinds of spanking- no matter who it is between- seemed like a given, if that is your…umm…kink, so to speak. Open, honest, person on person spanking. What’s not sexy about that? No matter the genders who are participating…it’s always very good.
    Why set limits?

    Reply
  4. Mija

    I just went back and re-read your blog post from 2010 on the topic — much more balanced and less rant-y. I think you hit upon much of what bothers me about our scene and the invisibility of M/M spanking.
    In response to a comment by a friend yesterday, I realized that I don’t know any M/M couples in the spanking scene, despite having been active for 13 or 14 years. This is so not like the rest of my life — whether friends or family, singles and couples of all orientations people my world. I must be doing something wrong when it comes to the CP / Spanking scene.

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  5. Mija

    I wish I could say I understand or have an answer to why the fear, why the homophobia, but I don’t. It could be both men and women internalizing and catering to a heterosexual male gaze. It could be a fear of the unknown.
    I don’t know why the limits are there. I sure would like them to go away though.

    Reply
  6. Bridget

    Preach on sister! These sorts of things upset me to no end, and they don’t end with M/M restrictions. However, that one is definitely the most prevalent and disturbing to me. I’m personally sick of people who are already identifying as alternative judging other people, especially other people who are equally different. We are all wonderfully kinked and twisted, I wish we would embrace each other.
    As a side note, I have a huge fantasy around Master spanking another man. Thus far, he has not given in to my pleading,but I will continue to try.

    Reply
  7. Graham

    Well. Fucking. Said.
    Hmm, sorry to go all obscene, but seriously — why is this kind of scene-promoted homophobia denounced so… rarely? These practices are discriminatory and unethical. And that is so much farther outside of my comfort zone than two dudes spanking.
    (Well, in fairness, two dudes spanking actually falls in a very happy zone.)

    Reply
  8. Kaelah

    Mija, I’m totally with you about M/M spankings! Actually my frustration about the narrow-mindedness of many spankos goes much further than that and I’ll write a post about it soon (including an M/M clip!). But I just posted another rambling two weeks ago that paralysed me completely for several days and I decided that it is better for my health to take it slow.
    I want to take up the cudgels on behalf of Spanking Tube though. Not that I agree with their policy not to show any M/M clips in their general search! But, given the narrow-mindedness of many of the people who are blogging or reading about spanking and those who are watching spanking porn, to my mind Spanking Tube is one of the most open sites I’ve found so far. Take a look at most of the blogs featuring spanking pictures and film reviews. What are you going to find? Most of the time purely M/F, F/F stuff! Not even F/M, not to mention M/M. Look at most blogs about the topic which contain pictures and stories. Any M/M? What about the clips produced by the vast majority of film producers? Again M/F and F/F, in 95% no mixture with F/M and definitely no M/M! Of course there are very few exceptions from that rule (like Pandora Blake’s upcoming site), but most of the time people prefer to have M/F and F/F strictly separated from F/M and M/M! Zille recently posted a very interesting survey, asking people: What do YOU want from spanking porn? Only a few commenters were interested in F/M and I think I was the only one who asked for M/M spankings! And in that light I have to admit that I can somehow see where Spanking Tube’s policy comes from. I don’t like it and I can relate to your argument that it is discriminating, but at least Spanking Tube is one of the platforms where I, as someone whose film fantasies are 95%!!! M/M, can find some clips I enjoy. I hope that their policy will change in the future, but given the narrow-mindedness that I see everywhere in our community I actually don’t believe that this is going to happen. 🙁
    By the way, there is a producer who makes great M/M spanking clips! The site is called Spanking Central and Ludwig and I have a link to them on our blog. Ludwig has already made the suggestion that I could write a review about them. When I’m done with my other ramblings and if they are interested I will write a post about them some time this year! I have to admit that since I’m not such a movie buff and Ludwig isn’t interested so much in M/M (but always had that link to Spanking Central because their clips are of good quality), I haven’t posted any M/M stories, pictures or clips so far. I’ve written about my fondness for M/M, but I think I should do more than that in the future. Because in my point of view the best thing we can do as bloggers if we want to make a change is to include M/M in our own blogs.

    Reply
  9. lydia

    I’ve always believed that homophobia is stemmed in some sort of sexual insecurity. It’s sad because those of us who possess this uh, kink, are already considered not normal by some standards (As to why I’ll never understand). What purpose could further marginalizing that serve? To validate our own worth by alienating the selected few? I hope that’s not what those groups are doing, as that would be silly, juvenile, even.
    Also, and this is slightly off topic, but, with the increase of the hispanic population in the U.S., the demographic of the entire country is shifting. It’s really time to get out for people to get out of the outdated (and ignorant) mindset that the quintessential American has to be caucasian.

    Reply
  10. Indy

    There is definitely a place for rants in public discourse, and this post is a particularly effective one. Both your and Paul’s analogies to racial discrimination made me look at this issue with a renewed sense of urgency. I also think people will find it hard to dismiss the pain in this post. Part of the reason the homophobes get away with it in the spanking scene is that there is so little interaction between the men’s leather scene and the CP/spanking community. So those who want to make everyone happy see very little reason to defend such a small segment of the spanking community. You’ve made a compelling case that hate hurts more of us than those directly affected by discriminatory policies, and I hope people are listening.

    Reply
  11. Paul

    Kaelah, your point about the dearth of M/M content generally in blogs and from content producers is a fair one, and there’s certainly loads of room for horizons to be widened, but to compare SpankingTube favourably in this regard seems to miss the point.
    Personal bloggers, and content producers generally – with some exceptions – write/shoot about their own interests, and if those interests don’t include M/M, or any other orientation, that’s their business. One might wish for a better mix of orientations across the whole of the scene, but that’s not the fault or responsibility of any individual blogger/producer, nor necessarily discriminatory.
    In contrast, SpankingTube advertises itself as providing a service whereby people can upload their own content. The requirement to treat all orientations equally is therefore a significant part of the deal – which they’re violating. This is a different situation entirely. The way to determine discrimination isn’t necessarily to count the amount of content for each orientation; it’s to assess whether orientations are treated equally. Bloggers don’t necessarily fail that test. SpankingTube fails it massively.

    Reply
  12. Kaelah

    Paul, I get your point about the public service and, as I already said, I’m not happy about Spanking Tube’s policy. I guess the problem is just that I am very disillusioned at the moment because I see discrimination everywhere right now. This is not only about personal preferences, this is about comments like “M/F is the only legitimate form of spanking” and so on. Maybe it’s also because I met Ludwig via Spanking Tube which was partly only possible because it is one of the few places where it is okay to post F/M clips like Ludwig’s Comeuppance Clip. And maybe it’s because Spanking Tube is also one of the very few places where I’ve found M/M clips at all and it made me very happy to know that something that comes so close to my fantasies really exists. The thing is: The fact that I am so frustrated with not finding the kinds of clips which I’m most interested in (M/M, M/MF) elsewhere might make me judge in favour of Spanking Tube, although this discussion is about Spanking Tube discriminating against M/M clips.
    Maybe another difference between your point of view and mine is that for me Spanking Tube isn’t any different from any blogger who makes money with affiliate links or even from professional producers. Because, as their “About” page shows, the people behind Spanking Tube aren’t kinky amateurs who are kindly providing a platform for everyone, it’s a company that also seems to be involved in many pay sites. To my mind they are just inviting others to share their stuff on their platform in order to generate traffic and money. For me their slogan “Spankingtube.com was created to let users upload amateur spanking movies and share them with the world. We also wanted to give Adult Producers a place to publish their free movies and advertise their content.” already shows that the platform serves business purposes. And so of course the people behind Spanking Tube decide how to reach as many viewers as possible and how to make a maximum profit. They don’t say anything about “all kinds of spanking movies” or anything like that in their slogan and a look at their FAQ section shows why. In their FAQ they openly say that they allow M/M clips but that these clips won’t be shown in the general searches, only under the special M/M tags. They also might not approve videos that are to BDSMy or too extreme for their taste and self-spanking videos. And of course they decide which videos fall into one of those categories and which don’t.
    I definitely don’t like that approach, so I’m completely with you concerning that point! But, still, I don’t see why their responsibility should be any different from that of others who make their profits with spanking porn. Services offered for free by companies who make profits with advertisement and affiliate links are usually offered under certain conditions which are decided upon by the ones who offer these services (see for example Facebook, Blogger or free mail providers). And Spanking Tube mentions their conditions in their FAQ section.
    Of course you still have a very valid point here: The FAQ rule is not very obvious and at first sight Spanking Tube looks like a non-profit platform that treats every form of kink equally. So, this is very misleading!
    But, by the way, since you mentioned YouTube as a positive example in your post: YouTube isn’t any different or any better. Racist clips can stay up for quite a long time, but fun spankings without any nudity are removed without further explanation although they don’t violate any of YouTube’s official rules (Ludwig made that experience)! They delete what they don’t like or support and you can never be sure what stays up and what is deleted. And I think, as sad as it is, this is true for all the “free” service providers who make money with their services.
    Of course, since they want to make profits, it might be possible to set them under pressure by customer requests?! People who don’t like their policies and who find them discriminating don’t have to use their service and they can also tell them why (and of course, they can inform others, as you and Mija did)! Maybe they’ll change their policy if there is enough protest? I assume my problem is that I currently don’t believe that there will be enough people who join in to make this plan a success. But that doesn’t mean that it isn’t worth a try! So I will mention your post in my upcoming rant (which might not be posted too soon because I don’t feel fit for that right now) and I will at least tell people how to use the “channel” search option in order to find M/M stuff if they like…

    Reply
  13. Mija

    Hi Kaelah,
    Thanks for taking the time to reply with your thoughts. I do find SpankingTube more offensive in their stance, partly because they’re happy to make money of M/M spanking, but are also cynical enough to cater to the homophobia in the scene (or have that homophobia themselves, not sure). The wanting it both ways is especially offensive to me. They’re also a huge site, found easily through searching for spanking videos and thus seem best to use as an example of what is, I agree completely, a larger problem in our scene.
    My own experience with race and people is that people can be very comfortable with their prejudices and the prejudices of others so long as it doesn’t effect them in their day to day life and so long as they aren’t confronted with the implications of what their biases mean. But when they are confronted, change can and does happen slowly. Look at how much our societies have changed in the last 50 or even 20 years on issues of race and ethnicity. Words and jokes that were acceptable in polite company aren’t any more. We don’t live in a perfect world by a long shot, but people have changed, at least in their outward manifestations.
    For me anyway, I can’t ignore this bias against M/M in our scene any longer. This second class treatment, whether it comes from homophobia, hate or anxiety over the unknown isn’t acceptable to me and I can’t be part of it. To the degree that SpankingTube is making this status quo part of their way of doing business, I do hold them responsible and find their behavior reprehensible.

    Reply
  14. Kaelah

    Mija, I understand your point of view, but as I wrote in my reply to Paul on Indy’s blog in my opinion those who have similar business models but don’t feature any M/M (or mostly no F/M either) discriminate people who are into it much more.
    And quite frankly I think that Spanking Tube wouldn’t loose any money if they decided not to allow any M/M at all (if you could make much more money by offering all gender constellations, more producers would do it, but most of them avoid any mixture instead) and I think it would maybe be much easier for them to do it like all the others and keep spankings with female spankees strictly separated (and I mean using completely different platforms or just offering the /F spankings) from those with male spankees and especially M/M. So, I, being someone who is interested in watching clips and whose interest is 95% M/M, feel much more welcome on Spanking Tube than on all the other platforms. Actually I don’t feel like I have any other place to go (concerning (free) clips). To my mind, Spanking Tube should be compared to other sites which offer services like spanking clips or pictures or reviews and not to spanking groups (I don’t see them as such a group). And I don’t think that their responsibility is any different from the responsibility of others, just because they are more successful. You can read my full line of argument on Indy’s blog if you like.
    I respect your point of view, though, because you look at the topic from a very different perspective. So, as I already said to Paul, I think we can only agree to disagree concerning our judgement of the intensity of different forms of discrimination.

    Reply
  15. Mija

    I appreciate that thought you put into this, but I think we do come from different perspective and place different levels of importance on the issue. Second, I don’t believe that SpankingTube is losing money by offering M/M content. I think it makes money for them and that’s why the offer it. That they’re willing to profit by a community they’re discriminating against is especially distasteful.
    For me, “free” content would be too expensive at the price of discrimination. I’d rather pay a M/M site than frequent a “free” one that treats one demographic as second class citizens.
    That said, I understand how you may have sentimental emotions toward SpankingTube as they site where you and Ludwig met. I do feel the same way toward the usenet group where I met Paul.
    (Revised slightly 5/15)

    Reply
  16. Kaelah

    That’s of course a valid opinion. The only pay-sites featuring M/M would be pure M/M sites, though. As far as I know there are no mixed pay-sites, either, except for Pandora’s in the near future.
    Question though: Are M/M clips really so important for you that you think about buying a membership to a pure M/M site? They are quite important for me, but I have to admit that I’m reluctant to pay a lot of money for spanking porn. And I think it is very sad that according to your rule people who want to watch M/M clips have to pay for them (because only Spanking Tube offers free M/M clips and it is unethical to support them) while all the others will find free clips on other sites…

    Reply
  17. Mija

    I know what you’re saying about the M/M. Since, as is the case for you, that’s a large part of where my interest lies and there are no good mixed sites, I would buy membership to a M/M one, especially one that had good school M/M images.
    That said, my interest in visual porn varies wildly — right now and for the past 18 months or so I’m not into looking. When I am interested in it, I look quite widely to find the right images and would likely join any membership site that had the right look and feel, assuming the cost wasn’t too high.
    I tend to suspect free content. I like being a paying customer because I feel it makes owners take concerns I have (or technical problems) more seriously.

    Reply
  18. Mija

    I think there is a degree of sexual insecurity associated with this. I think one of the issues that makes this even more uncomfortable, is a lot of the fights for understanding of BDSM have been made by the men’s leather community.
    It seems so disloyal to then treat M/M spanking as something other.

    Reply
  19. Kaelah

    I find free amateur clips made by spanking enthusiasts very appealing as well (and actually watching them usually satisfies my hunger for spanking porn), but unfortunately there is no place where one can publish M/M amateur clips, except for Spanking Tube. As I wrote on Indy’s blog, Spanking Central is an interesting M/M pay-site, but I don’t know whether it fits to your taste (as far as I remember, they don’t have so many traditional school scenes).

    Reply
  20. Redhead

    When I see comments such as Florida Moonshine’s: “Though men who wish to play with other men will not find our group to their liking, virtually all other spanking people will enjoy and be welcome at our parties,” (by “all other”, I assume they welcome F/F), I just ask myself why they receive support from anyone in an alternative lifestyle, where interpersonal tolerance and acceptance even encouragment of others’ co-consentual tastes is a cornerstone of our beliefs.

    Reply
  21. Mija

    That language in FMS bothered me too. I heard that they’d changed their policy. I’m sorry if that isn’t the case. It’s certainly kept us from going to their parties.

    Reply
  22. S

    Um, so not arguing about the unfairness in the representation of M/M in the scene….just saying I think spankingtube search function sucks in general. Ever since I read the original post about how discriminatory they are towards M/M, I’ve been checking to see if it’s been fixed or updated…At first, I couldn’t get the search function to work with anything. Today, I was perusing your blog again (I wanna know how the ceremony goes!) and I checked back…this is what I got when I searched for M/M http://www.spankingtube.com/search?search_query=M%2FM&search_type=videos
    So it seems to have improved to. I’d be interested to know if it has improved in other’s experience as well…

    Reply
  23. S

    Or perhaps I’ve missed the point. Is the conflict over whether it is easy to find the content, or that they are not equally represented in the “all” category? Lol…Have I spent all this time trying to figure out what’s up with the search function when it wasn’t even the complaint in the first place!?

    Reply
  24. PaulAtNorthGare

    S,
    The problem isn’t that the M/M content isn’t accessible when you search for it. It’s that you generally speaking do have to specifically search for it in order to find it, and that’s not at all clear or equitable. The best example is that the “Most Recent Videos” page doesn’t include any M/M content, even though it has the “Category” option set to “All”.
    Basically it seems clear that the searches have been jury-rigged to make sure that M/M content never appears front page, and that unless you’re specifically looking for it, it’s very unlikely you’ll see it.
    There’s more in the post of mine that Mija links to.

    Reply
  25. S

    Hmm…I did read your post, but it was so long ago I forgot the details. I re-read…and see the point. It’s pretty offensive, in more ways than one. Even in the new videos section, I can only find a couple of F/M…I’m not much of a porn watcher anyway, I prefer real life adventures. But it makes me sad that anyone would be discriminated against….and obviously spankingtube isn’t planning on changing. You two rock, thanks for keeping me up to date on the kinky world. Fight the good fight! Lol.

    Reply

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